36 - The Art of Balancing Creativity and Leadership - Tassia Swulinska

What is it that makes a design truly captivating, and how can you lead a team of talented creatives to craft such masterpieces? We had the pleasure of sitting down with Tassia Swulinska, design visionary and design director at Dixon Baxi, to uncover the secrets behind her staggering success in the world of book cover design and creative leadership.

Throughout our conversation, we explore Tassia's unique approach to managing a highly creative team, striking a delicate balance between individual creativity and the overall vision of a project. Hear about the fast-paced world of design, the importance of taking a step back to find a fresh perspective, and how Tassia's team collaborates to tell a story through their designs. We also discuss the invaluable advice she has to offer on finding creative confidence and fostering it in the next generation of designers.

Join us for this inspiring conversation, as we dive into the fascinating world of creative leadership and design with Tassia Swulinska. Discover her journey from her early beginnings to her current role as design director, and learn how embracing the freedom of creativity and the beauty of messiness in the process can lead to truly captivating designs.

Tune In as we discuss her creative leadership journey on The Groundbreakin Podcast

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Transcript

Q: 0:15

Hi, this is your host, Q live in the wreck from Syqi Studio Kochi. Hope you all are having a good time. Welcome to the ground baking where we sit down with creatives, design and business pioneers to discuss their journeys, process and approach. If you are listening to this podcast for the first time, consider subscribing. Also, check out our website. We are working on a newsletter and a slowly growing design community on Discord, where we have weekly design live session every Saturday where we learn something new.

Q: 0:44

For this episode, we have the pleasure of welcoming Tassia Swulinska, a design visionary and design DixonBaxi at . Tasha's passion for book cover design has paved her creative path and she has worked on projects that resonate with audiences far and wide. In our conversation, we explore Tasha's fascinating journey in design and her experiences working on projects that captivate the masses. From her early beginnings to her current role as a design director, tasha brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to the table. We also dive into her unique perspective on creative leadership, uncovering the principles that guide her in leading and inspiring teams of high level creatives. Join in as we talk about her creative leadership journey. Hey, tasha, how's it going with you?

Tassia Swulinska: 1:51

I'm good Q How you doing.

Q: 1:53

Doing great, having had a busy day. It's Friday Eve out here. How's it going with you? Where are you? What's?

Tassia Swulinska: 2:03

the time, like I am in the studio, i'm in London at DixonBaxi HQ. We are just getting into summer, so second of June it's lovely and sunny outside. Yeah, friday. I'm actually in the studio today, just doing a few bits, but it's not a day where everyone's in, so it's kind of nice and quiet. I thought I'd come and show off the bookshelves to you.

Q: 2:26

Is it like the best time of the year for you?

Tassia Swulinska: 2:29

I think so. I mean, i suppose, because the winter is quite long, it's quite nice to come in spring and summer. Yeah, it's a nice summer year. Everyone smiles in the sunshine.

Q: 2:41

Yeah, I think it's been almost a couple of months that we had that catch up call and you've been busy since then. So, first of all, thanks for hopping onto the podcast, and I'm already excited about the things we're going to talk about. So tell us something about what you've been doing, tasha. I mean, what do you do at Dixon Baxi? How do you pronounce it? Is it like Dixon Buxy? Dixin Baxi!

Tassia Swulinska: 3:12

Simon Dixin and Aporva Buxy. Obviously they're the founders and we're 21 years now. They've been running the studio for 21 years So really I mean I've always been like a massive fan from when I graduated and seen all the work out there. It took me about 10 years to get through the door. I worked in various studios across London but yeah, i was a huge fan. So I actually got the role during lockdown, when COVID and everything was happening and it was just, yeah, epic to come in and work with the team. Really They're inspiring bunch of people.

Q: 3:56

Yeah, i mean that's definitely a really important job. I mean let's take a deep dive in your you know, in a little early in your career. You always wanted to be a designer.

Tassia Swulinska: 4:08

I don't know if I really knew what like being a graphic designer was. I knew that I was drawn to art and literature, so those were my top subjects, along with music I guess. So they were the only ones I felt at home in and I think I wanted to be a painter at one point. You know, don't know what graphic design was, and someone actually steered me in that direction. So I went to Bath School of Art, which was an amazing course, very kind of, i'd say, quite craft based and conceptual. Our tutors were awesome. One of the tutors was Matt Robertson, who did the factory records book. I don't know if you know much about factory records, but obviously the art behind that with Peter Savill and he's the graphic designer that made a lot of it. So there was a little bit of influence from that And yeah, so that was.

Tassia Swulinska: 5:06

That was sort of early on, I guess. And then I got quite into the. we had a book design teacher and letterpress And so I got quite into the more physical sides of design and love the use of language and was quite obsessed with book design And I kind of ended up working in. My first role was at Fitch, which you know you guys have a Fitch HQ in India, then, yeah, i worked there for the first three and a half years and then did a bit of traveling in India. No, i'm happy to do it actually. Yeah, i've been just for a trip. Yeah, amazing food.

Q: 5:49

Yeah, i mean what? what cities? which, all cities you traveled?

Tassia Swulinska: 5:53

I went to Mumbai and then stayed there for a bit and then got the bus to Goa, which was cool, and then, when it's all, hemp hempy as well.

Q: 6:05

Yeah, It's a beautiful place, yeah.

Tassia Swulinska: 6:06

Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's really really nice and beautiful colors everywhere. Difference of grey London. Yeah, yeah, it's great Yeah.

Q: 6:18

So I mean, you saw, you got a chance to, you know, dip your toes into a lot of you know physical stuff like books and book covers and all which which you don't you know get to see a lot lately, I think, But, but, but but I think on. I lately have been seeing a lot of you know creators on on Instagram doing, doing that thing and they are actually making you know, making a difference. So do you think when you, when you started, you know, when you're, when you're growing in your career and everything was becoming digital, this approach of you know printing things kind of help you in a way, Or do you?

Tassia Swulinska: 6:55

Yeah, I was thinking about that earlier. Just the tactility is something, yeah, different and connected to me with the kind of printed page and the way the textures come together. It's more about the physical, like the object. I did I ended up doing a MA at Reading and book design focused on that, which was, you know, learning all about the printing history, like we had some some great tutors there that were sort of like professional book designers, and John Morgan, who's like you know, he does some absolutely beautiful work, and that was probably that was like my dream, i think, to do book design And I think that that's probably the best. It's probably like the sum of all, all sort of the best bits of graphic design for me, because you've got like, obviously, the physicality, the typography, the narrative and the and the sort of imagery that the combination of all of those kind of like filmic, filmic page, you know, yeah yeah, I can see that you.

Q: 8:02

You you've got a book design master degree from University of Reading. Tell me about that.

Tassia Swulinska: 8:07

Yeah, actually it's Reading is the place. Oh, all right, oh sorry, yeah, yeah. No, but it's like it's quite funny because obviously Design for Reading is located in Reading, so they're spelled the same.

Q: 8:21

Yeah, yeah it made me sound so dumb. No, no, no.

Tassia Swulinska: 8:27

That was. That was, yeah, as this guy called Sir Michael Twyman. Actually he started that course, probably been running for I don't know 30 years or something. He went to the art school there and realize there wasn't any education for typography and printing history at all in the UK, that sort of focused. So he, he created the school And it was in.

Tassia Swulinska: 8:54

It was it's in a crazy kind of like old hospital. It's like a really random location, but it's shared. The MA there is shared with the type designers who are learning how to create. You know fonts from, you know Latin and non Latin scripts, so you're sharing that with the information designers And so it's like you know, it was quite a nice place to be because we're all kind of learning all this like really important history that I guess doesn't really get, doesn't always get taught, because everyone in design be future facing Yeah. So I loved it. It was quite, you know, intense and lots of people told me not to do it because it wasn't. Like. You know, book design is dead and people say all that sort of stuff. Yeah.

Q: 9:41

I mean, that definitely sounds very specific. Also, right, i mean book. you know studying design, you know, and and again, specializing into book design. So I mean, so was it like your passion towards designing for books? What was the reason that you chose this?

Tassia Swulinska: 10:01

Well, i was doing like quite a lot of maybe a bit more commercial work than I wanted to, more corporate staff in studios, and I was, i just felt like drawn towards something a bit more physical. So I did that And, although I didn't become a book designer, i think that I use the, the craft that I gained and the knowledge and everything I do, just whether it's kind of just details and typography or the way that we do kind of storytelling. You know, sometimes we'll make a zine like a mock up zine, and just printing things out kind of makes you approach it in a slightly different way. So so yeah, i'm glad I did it And yeah, there's always a few more books to design, but if you take time, so so I mean, so, I mean you, you.

Q: 10:58

You spend some time in you know working around design before you hopped on to you know learning about this, right, If I can, Yeah.

Tassia Swulinska: 11:07

Yeah, sort of dotting around a bit, i guess. I graduated, i worked at Fitch for a few years, did a bit of traveling And then came back into London I worked for a company called Imagination And then I was actually freelance for probably about six years or so, did my MA and then I was freelance and which is cool because you know, you get to see a lot of different studios and I never really felt like I'd find somewhere that I wanted to base myself, you know. So, yeah, sort of fast forward, i guess.

Q: 11:45

Like yeah, so tell us about your, your time. You were independent for six years. Six years is a long time, you know, and tell us about you know. Why did you choose that path and what made you? you know, continue your path at Dixon Boxing.

Tassia Swulinska: 12:00

I think at the time it was a little bit more freedom, you know, create freedom to choose where you wanted to be and also get a little bit more experience. There's pros and cons, you know, in that you can do work that you want to a bit more, but then you don't have, you know, as included, I suppose, in the studios and you know you don't get deep into the culture of studios. That was definitely missing, I think, and it took me a bit of time to figure out where I wanted to be and and the type of work that I wanted to do as well. Yeah, there's a lot of. there's such a like broad, broad range of studios and in London and you know it doesn't fit everyone, the pace and the culture, It's hard to get it right.

Q: 12:55

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean it's definitely a lonely ride. I mean I've been into freelancing myself and but I only could do it for two years, but but yeah, definitely. So what what made you? you know, go choose this path and you know because again, i'm definitely loved that the kind of work you guys are doing And and then you again so tell us about the transition and you know the kind of projects you were doing. And how do you find out that, okay, it's a good fit for you?

Tassia Swulinska: 13:28

Well, I think it's just the. You know the quality of the work here And you know that I think by the output I could sense that the, the, the sort of thought that goes into every aspect, whether it's the language or the way things move or the way that things are presented and the storytelling sort of like. That's the power. I think of what kind of Dixon Baxi has and you know, from a writer to strategist to designer, editor, there's. You can sense it in the work that there's like a craft and equality and yeah, and you want to learn from from the best. So, yeah, it's one of those places that's quite daunting to be in, you know, when you first arrive, because so many talented people but everyone's awesome and, you know, very supportive. It's a fast paced world that we live in, but everyone's got so much talent And there's lots of.

Tassia Swulinska: 14:38

Yeah, I've been learning a lot. I think I started off as a senior. I was here for a couple, like maybe a year and a half, as a senior designer and then more recently as design director. So that's obviously changed my approach as well and I'm learning a lot and managing like the vision a lot more and comes with different, different challenges. Yeah, so it's kind of been a. It's been a great journey so far. It's some yeah, some mad amazing place to work.

Q: 15:07

Yeah, yeah, i mean as a design director, you know. I mean considering that you already have a team of highly creative people. So how do you manage that? because, again, it's not like that. You know you have to tell them about the deliverables or you know, or how they should work. So how do you know manage already you know a highly creative team. Just curious about that.

Tassia Swulinska: 15:33

I mean, it's just it's constantly evolving. So the way that we like to approach things is that everyone is everyone's like a creative, everyone's input is is equally valid. So we, we kind of fuel each other And it's not, although I might be kind of leading in one aspect And that would be like sort of setting the vision and making sure that people feel empowered to, to follow their own sort of like creativity, obviously within whatever our framework of strategy is, but I think being able to empower everyone individually to follow their own creativity, what they think is right, then that sort of like shows in the work. You're sort of like creative spirit, you know, which sounds a bit cheesy, but it does. It does There is an energy about that, you know, if you're figuring something out and you're doing something you really believe in, so so there's a bit of that and and then, yeah, just like the vision is something that you need to kind of like set, i guess, and continue to develop and and and almost like yeah, yeah And yeah, So and what do you?

Q: 16:52

what do you? so I'm sure where you're sitting, you also have a you know a lot of responsibility to. You know build an effective team. You know building that space. You know building that space where innovation and creativity can also thrive. So how do you constantly remind yourself, or maybe the kind of things you follow, to make sure that you know it works like that, that that you, in the end, you, whatever work you create, you should have like an effective team?

Tassia Swulinska: 17:20

Yeah, i think the everyone who's sort of like in this building has like a really strong skill set and a strong opinion and they're they're all smart people. So it's not necessarily me setting it. You know like it's been able to to create a space that is nurturing and you know it's my input as well as as everyone else is in the team. So You know what we do is we share, we share a lot, we share a lot of work all the time. We create a lot. So we've got, you know, huge bodies of work to then edit into.

Tassia Swulinska: 17:57

And you'll find that little thread of magic and depend what stage you're at in the project. Of course, like at this point where I am in my project, it's a We're right at the end of a, probably like an, an eight, eight months or seven month project. So you know, this is like the peak of delivery And that's a different you need different kind of muscles to to make that happen than in the initial phases, which is more kind of the ignite, kind of inspire state where you're creating, generating ideas.

Q: 18:39

Yeah, would like to. Would like to know more about the kind of. I mean, of course, i mean whatever you're allowed to say, because eight months is a long time for a design project, or do you think you work on such long projects all the time?

Tassia Swulinska: 18:53

And not always.

Tassia Swulinska: 18:54

I mean, they obviously have those different stages of that.

Tassia Swulinska: 18:58

That period of time, you know, from the kind of strategy through to that translation we work with strategist to, you know, evolve what the kind of creative principles would be for the brand, and there's a there's a long phase of of kind of creative exploration, which, which is probably that is probably the most exciting part you know, that bit where you're trying to figure things out can be the scariest bit and And then we'll, once that vision is set, like we'll make it happen. So so, for the project I'm doing, because it's quite vast, there's lots of different aspects to that. So, yeah, not all of them are that long and and yeah, you have to kind of find a way of of still being inspired by the work, you know, because obviously sometimes you get a little bit tired and you have to kind of take a step back and realize what you're doing, or trying to reconnect with the work and the team and everything. Because, yeah, i think you know, you know yourself, it can be, it can be tough being a designer.

Q: 20:11

Yeah, yeah that's it, and I mean I mean that happens to all of us, right. I mean you know you have to work towards a single brief and you know you use after point. You are like you kind of, you feel like you that you're kind of stuck and you are not doing what you really want to do. So it's like I call it, you know balancing and sexy work with sexy work. So I mean, how do you do that? or do you got your? I mean, do you have some kind of activities in your team that you constantly which constantly you know a few of your creativity? Because because I've been, you know, talking about it with a couple of people that you know they, they always mention about it, because there's a reason that you become a designer, right, so you have to in order to be consistently creative. You know you do one or the other things. So I'm just just want to know how you guys are tackling that.

Tassia Swulinska: 21:04

I think you just have to like be able to take energy and give energy to the team as well, like it's not. You're not just creating everything on your own thing. You need to lean on your colleagues, your peers. If, if you haven't found that energy, you know you might have an off week or an off day and talking to someone can help work that out, and you know they might then see it from a different angle. And I think you need to be able to support your, your colleagues, and they'll support you because you know it's not, it's not easy all the time and and then you kind of get that energy back and you might be able to support them the next time. So I think being open is probably the best thing you can do with if you are, if you are struggling with it, because often it just takes a little bit of a conversation to turn your perception around.

Q: 22:00

Yeah, and how much do you think so? so I've been. You know, right now I'm in that position where I'm running a team of 1012 people and lately I've been seeing that I mean, i've read it somewhere but I've been seeing that, you know, the kind of work, the kind of culture, the kind of, you know, relationship you have amongst the team is directly proportional to the work you're creating, directly proportion to your output. Do you think it makes sense?

Tassia Swulinska: 22:29

Yeah, definitely. So what I've found is that if you believe in the work and your, if it comes from you that you don't think about what it should look like, you sort of like has to come from what you believe, and it sounds like a little bit maybe contrived, but it doesn't happen all the time. For me, you know, confidence can waiver and that shows in my work when I'm when I'm not feeling confident, and when I am, when I'm confident in my ideas, my creative kind of ideas, then it, then it shows. So I know that about myself. So I believe that giving other people confidence is the way to to let them shine in their work. So that's that's probably a different thing, isn't it? you know you're not just managing what the work should look like, but empowering the team to have confidence in their idea and to pursue something that they might not have thought of before, or try something different. Think outside the box, like it's.

Tassia Swulinska: 23:39

I think experimentation is probably the scariest and most fun bit of the job. You know, trying a new program or switching it around, switching or talking to sign a B about this, they, they have like a quite healthy, healthy competition, i'd say, between them, and I think that's why they're so, you know, they've their partnership. Their creative partnership has endured because they challenge each other and they kind of push one another and they switch files. Shouldn't tell you that, actually, they've said it on a podcast before. But yeah, like you know, being able to to contribute to someone else's work as well, because I think designers can be a little bit there, they can be quite self critical and maybe get a bit like in their heads comparing yourself to someone else or something like that, and if you can start to see and feel someone else's work, then they might see something in yours. It's not always you that spots the quality in your work, you know.

Q: 24:43

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. And see, you are right now, you're working, you know. So we work around different types of creative people, creative status, you know, strategists, designers and everyone. I think, as a creative leader, you have to see their superpower and you know, make the make the most out of the of their skillset, but, but, but, but a lot of people don't talk about especially people who are, you know, creative leaders, like, like you. How do you ensure that everyone is working, you know, towards the same goal and collaborating, you know, effectively? So how do you know? because, constantly, because, again, again, i'm sure, a lot of times, the sensitivity of the projects is immaculate. So how do you ensure that? you know that that bit.

Tassia Swulinska: 25:35

So do you mean, how do you ensure the that we're collaborating?

Q: 25:39

Yep, yep, and also working on the same goal, considering that it can be, you know, become overwhelming. I think that actually, i'm also sharing up this as a problem I face.

Tassia Swulinska: 25:50

Well, i think, because it's so vast sometimes what we're creating, you get a bit lost in the weeds and you you might get maybe you maybe a little overwhelmed by the scale of what you're doing. Or, once you start creating, you might have the vision and then, once you start making, you feel that you're losing it. So You can go back to the core, go back to the original work, but also keep. I think you need to keep track of that little magic, that kind of like essence whether it's three images or kind of like a set of it could be like the magic kind of deck that you've got on the side that you're constantly referring back to.

Tassia Swulinska: 26:34

Because sometimes, like, the amazing thing I've found is that when you're in the initial stages of you know ideation and really loose and able to be free, that's often where the best ideas come from a bit more raw and not overthinking. So going back to those early ideas and reminding yourself oh yeah, actually that was cool, i forgot about that. It's all there because you've done all the thinking but you might have just caught up in the details of formats or output And yeah, it's all there. I think you just have to trust that. It kind of you need to resurface it and bring the magic to the top.

Q: 27:21

So do you think that in this whole process, documenting is something which is important for you, or how much you guys take a step back? So let me just ask you that, whenever you have a scope of work of maybe three months, four months, i mean how often does it happen that you guys take a step back and start afresh Not start afresh, but take a step back and maybe do more iterations? How often does it happen and how do you think if it's a good approach or not?

Tassia Swulinska: 27:56

It does happen, actually starting again. That's quite scary. That's happened a couple of times. Don't be afraid to start again. If you don't think it's working, then you've got everything out, haven't you? You've got all the initial first ideas out and maybe the next round is actually unsurfacing something a bit more original. But more to your first point, it's like if you feel like the work is not hitting it, it's not there, then go back and remind yourself. Taking a time out is the hardest thing to do, i think, when you're trying to figure something out because you've got deadlines and things. But if you could just say, like this isn't working today. We don't all have the luxury of that. Even the small breaks, revisiting, going back, switching it up a little bit, can help. I'm quite intrigued to see what your project is now.

Q: 29:07

Yeah, for sure I'd love to talk about it Again when you say that, starting off fresh, i'm expecting a lot of support from your client as well, i'm sure that can be really hard.

Tassia Swulinska: 29:25

Yeah, i suppose it depends which phase you're in of the project and what you've agreed and things like that. But you're never going to make that decision lightly, are you? It's quite a big decision to make and quite a brave one to be able to say, okay, well, maybe this isn't working. I mean, i guess it's quite extreme, but we have done it and it worked out for the better. But yeah, it was a bit risky because obviously time but sometimes you're kind of coming at the problem from an angle that is clouding your view So sort of new set of paper blank sheet can….

Q: 30:15

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, i mean it has happened with me where I tried my best to take a step back to come up with something better, but I didn't get that support from the client. Yeah, that's, i think, the other side of the game. So I mean, as a design director, i've already mentioned that You've already mentioned that the kind of people you have it's a very diverse team you have. So, when you're working towards a single goal, how do you select a proposal, for example? How do you realize, okay, oh, this is working. So I mean, this is something which is very individualistic approach you follow, or you like your whole team sits and decide, okay, what's the best? Because that's also what I find very difficult to do, because a lot of times you know it's just… And again taking that call okay, we have to move forward with this. you know we're drawing that line.

Tassia Swulinska: 31:27

I think it's got to be for me like coming from the team and obviously the kind of the final decision would be between me and the creative director or whoever is at that level. But it doesn't really. It kind of we all work together very in a way. That is like, you know, a lot of contributions coming from the whole team.

Tassia Swulinska: 31:53

I think you know what's working and what's not. So those decisions are like made out of discussions and we have this thing called campfire. So we all come around and we're kind of discussing the work and we might, you know, analyze that, strip stuff down and boil it down and remix it. That's sort of the way that we would like to work in a very collaborative way. And that's also where you get the kind of most, for me, the most original, because it's called, you know, the contribution from lots of different mindsets and lots of different eyes. That can, you know, get to the little sweet spot that you wouldn't be able to necessarily decide on your own. So it's definitely more team focused and that's to make those kind of decisions.

Q: 32:43

Yeah, yeah makes sense, it's always. I mean, in my case, it's. I mean I definitely agree with what you said. In my case, i always have difficulty to you know, go go with that, because I also think about the other side of the game, which is, you know, convincing the client of what we are trying to try and do. So, yeah, that's that's. That's a difficult part I have been lately, you know, finding out. So, yeah, it's definitely fun.

Tassia Swulinska: 33:13

Yeah, well, we have a lot of like this. There's not one perfect way to do it, and we have a lot of discussions about what the right way to do that exact thing is like. Do we do one route that we really like, the answer to the problem that everyone is behind, or do you kind of do, do you go wide? And you know there's always different opinions and it depends on the problem, i guess. But it's all about being able to tell the story. I think if you're telling the story and you're creating a, an answer to a problem in a really clear way, then that and you're answering it step by step, then I think you're doing the job. You know it's not just about creating something that visually looks great. It has to respond to the challenge and, yeah, that's where everyone's minds come in, isn't it? You can't do it completely on your own, yeah, yeah that's right.

Q: 34:13

So as an agency I'm sure you get like all types of projects. So I mean only if you're allowed to answer, you know, answer this question do you have like a set of processes for for you know, for a different, different briefs? So, for example, if you have a brand building project or you have a, you know, decided, a process that you want to follow, or every time you have some brief and you try to design the process as well, or you kind of stick to your process. I'm just serious about that.

Tassia Swulinska: 34:49

Yeah, we have like the kind of the process is set but flexible. You know, we have a process that we will work to, from the kind of initiate phase to the insights you know, gathering insight, and then you know, then we're in inspire, where we were like actually creating. So the process is there, but obviously it depends if it's like a pure brand, pure kind of brand creation depends on the sector it's in and what the format you know is. I've done I don't I've done quite a bit of streaming or more digital kind of broadcast brands since I've been here, which is cool because you get to mix everything from sound design to film and motion and and typography and graphics and all of that. So that's quite like. Yeah, i guess there's, there is an approach to it, but every project is a bit different so they'll have a different set of challenges.

Q: 35:59

Yeah, they got that. Yeah, that's right. So I was checking out the website and I saw that you guys have a TV series of your own. Yeah, tell me about that. I mean, I still have to watch the whole thing and it's definitely very intriguing. What are you trying to do with that?

Tassia Swulinska: 36:21

Yeah, that's actually, it's the Dixon Backsie way season two. They did first one a couple of years back now with Psy and AB, which is more. The intention is to kind of lift the veil a little bit on the creative process and agency life and be more open source So students and people coming into the industry can understand and learn, I guess, about creative challenges and what actually goes on behind the studio doors, Because I think that historically it's all been a little bit kind of closed and there's this element of studios kind of having their own secret recipe or. But I think Psy and AB wanted to be a lot more open sourced. So that was the initial one from the DBY season one And then last summer we did DBY season two and it was just kind of a bit more about the team and answering those gnarly creative questions And they're in bite size format as well.

Tassia Swulinska: 37:29

So they're kind of like a few sort of six minutes I think, five or six minutes little bite size mini podcasts and they're on the website and it's quite easy for students to access And there's a lot of questions on there that are really helpful, I think, and the whole kind of range of the team that we're on there, as well as quite a broad, broad amount of opinions, So I think it's great. I would have loved something like that when I was just coming into the industry. It can be quite daunting, right.

Q: 38:01

Yeah, for sure. I mean right now, there's so much stuff out there, i mean as a student, i think when I was a student it sounds like I'm too old, but I was a student in 2012, 13, there was a lot of stuff there as well. Then as well, it's been almost a decade, so so, yeah, but right now it's like I mean, you know, nothing can stop you. You know, if you want to learn something, that are plethora of stuff to you know, dip your toes into. In our last call, you mentioned about the book club in the studio. Tell me about that. I mean, is that the favorite part of your job?

Tassia Swulinska: 38:42

Was it my book club or the studio book club?

Q: 38:45

I can't clearly remember what that or you definitely mentioned about the book club.

Tassia Swulinska: 38:50

Well, it's basically, if you see the walls here, you know the this is like the breadth of. We have so many design books in here and it's so cool to be around. You know Simon and AB will just buy a new book. Every there's always new books coming into the studio, so even here I've got some with me. Actually I got this is Yoss.

Q: 39:31

I mean the sizes, definitely insane.

Tassia Swulinska: 39:33

Yeah, this is awesome. It's kind of relevant to the work that I'm doing at the moment, because the work is it's quite raw and you know that sort of lovely collage.

Q: 40:22

Yeah.

Tassia Swulinska: 40:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah.

Q: 42:38

Yeah.

Tassia Swulinska: 43:11

Yeah, then that can be obviously really rewarding. The thing that I've been up to why I've been so busy recently is because we've been on lots of photo shoots and I haven't actually done the huge amount of that work in the past. Just getting out there and photographing, creating our own images to use within the work has been super rewarding. I think that's probably what I've taken most from this project I'm doing. Now. You need to make the images yourself, because when you start to then find going through things like Getty or things like image banks, that takes away from your own decision and your own vision. So even things like case studies when you're photographing work to go in the case study creating, printing out and making your own mock-ups rather than putting it in a mock-up that's the exciting bit as well, because you know that you're making something that's completely original. So yeah, the two sides the middle bit's really hard.

Q: 44:41

And I think that's also the part where all the lines are a little bloody, i feel, and again, i think so, for example, there's this I don't know. I mean, your team has done a project for HBO, if I'm not wrong.

Tassia Swulinska: 44:59

Oh yeah yeah.

Q: 45:00

So when you are doing that kind of a project because I think this is what I think on the other side is that a lot, millions and millions of people gonna see that logo right, millions and millions of the people gonna see the visuals that you guys are designing, so you have a lot of weight on your shoulder. So how do you make sure that you do justice with that? Or maybe it's not a big deal?

Tassia Swulinska: 45:29

I think it is a big deal. I think everyone feels a weight of it And it's like, you know, the opportunity to create something that's gonna be seen in millions of people's homes. It comes with, you know, that trepidation that it has to be perfect or crafted, and that's I think that's why we're here. We wanna make good work, so that's not gonna be going out the door after a week of logo design. This is, you know, crafted over time And yeah, it's quite a weight, i think, sometimes. But I think you have to sort of forget about the end result and just focus on creating something that works and something that looks cool, because otherwise you get like burdened by that weight And that's a distraction, you know that can be kind of a little debilitating, i think. So, yeah, try not to take it too seriously, but tell any designer that And it's a nightmare.

Q: 46:38

Yeah, for sure. I mean it's very easy, you know, just to say, but when you are on it definitely there's a lot of pressure, and also to kind of build that trust, you know, to that whatever you wanna do is out there, you know. I mean you know so for such projects or your ideal projects. So basically in this podcast I'm asking all the things I don't know about or I feel difficult about. So yeah, thanks for that. So is it like it's a? so I mean, in the beginning, as a team try to follow. You know you try to create a lot of iterations. You focus on the quantity more, or from the initial level you are like, okay, everything we are making has to be top notch, the quality should be 100%. Or you balance, like, quantity and quality.

Tassia Swulinska: 47:39

Yeah, i mean the end result has to be top notch, but you can't get there straight away. You need to be able to be free from the or was the burden of the final result, to be able to be free and explore and be tactile. And I think you have to be kind of pushing yourself and making a lot to be able to kind of get to the core of what a good idea is. So we do generate a lot of work before we kind of find that that magic gem. Sometimes you get there quite quickly, but other times it takes time. So I think, as people who are creative, we just we like to produce and then edit And we get closer and closer to what that vision is, or bringing the vision to life. And yeah, the making is the fun part, right, like we're creative people that want to make stuff. So you have to kind of let that be free enough to find something special, i guess.

Q: 48:53

Yeah, for sure, 100%. I think I asked this question a lot in the podcast about how you constantly stay creative. What are the things that you do, what are the kind of activities on a daily basis you follow, which keeps you constantly creative?

Tassia Swulinska: 49:17

Walking. that's a good one. I do a lot of writing. actually I write a lot in the mornings, not necessarily creative writing, but to.

Tassia Swulinska: 49:28

sometimes it's good to kind of write, to get into a bit of a flow, but it's hard to creativity to be 100% on all the time. You are at points more in flow than others. I think you have to forgive yourself at some points for not being there all the time. So, yeah, i like to make things and try and kind of forget about the kind of the weight of what you have to do and get to a place that feels a little bit more in flow. It might be like listening to some very loud music or just sort of making something that feels quite lo-fi, that feels quite loose.

Tassia Swulinska: 50:19

Going back to what you just said, your previous question do you need to make something that feels polished and finished? Obviously, in the end it will, but nothing becomes that way. Just, you don't work like that. It's kind of messy, isn't it The creative process? and you sometimes lose your way and then go back, and so we like to produce and present things in a way that feels like it honors an idea and honors the challenge, but not to be noodling to a point where you're forgetting the freedom. So yeah, i guess at different times in the creative process you need to switch on that button, but to be creatively free at the beginning, i think it's really important.

Q: 51:11

Yeah, i mean not. A lot of people talk about a messy process to the world. I think that's one of those things that I think it's okay to be messy. I think that's what makes the result more interesting. But again, you have to draw the line of where you want to stop. So to do a thing, that's the right way of making the most out of a creative process.

Tassia Swulinska: 51:40

Yeah, I think so. You're obviously messy within. If you're using a computer. It can't be that messy, can it? Because it's everything you're still thinking about what the tone of it is, the color you're making decisions. I work with some people that are very, very neat, so maybe I'm just a messy person. I think you have to find the way that works for you, and everyone has their own different way, don't they? You can't copy an approach that someone else has, because really it's your. It's about figuring out how you'd like to work best. I work really well in the morning, not very well in the afternoon, You know. I have like quite clear ideas and visions in the morning, And then when I get to three o'clock, you know that's probably when I should do something else, like a different task.

Q: 52:38

Yeah, Yeah, I mean, and you talked about the writing part I've been I've been in fact a lot, you know, starting to write myself, And I think it has helped me a lot. Do you think more designers should focus on writing?

Tassia Swulinska: 52:56

I think you are, as part of being a designer, you're a writer. It's obviously you're not like a brand writer or a copywriter, but you have to be able to articulate and tell a story, whether it's free words or visually the combination. So I think designers are often writers as well. They might not be writing the copy lines, but to be able to tell, like you know, a strong narrative with the strong beats that you need to land something, and then writing is like kind of integral. So you know whether it's spelt right or not is a different thing. But now you have lots of things to help us with that.

Q: 53:40

So yeah, yeah, sounds awesome. So that that takes us to the you know, to the end of the podcast, and I mean, what are the tips you'd like to give to the designers or creative directors to you know that that maybe you thought you realized on the way are the, you know, key to create amazing work, if you have something to talk about.

Tassia Swulinska: 54:11

No pressure, I don't know.

Tassia Swulinska: 54:16

I was thinking about this earlier which is actually a nice point to say thank you for inviting me on here, because I do love the podcast and I love what you're doing, you know visually, and that you're a guest and this and the sound design and everything. So it's really cool that you're creating this platform and community And it's given me a kind of nice opportunity to think about those things. And what is it that makes you tick as a designer? What is is it that you love? Because you can forget about those things when you're in the process, And so it's a really cool thing that you're doing. I think I don't know.

Tassia Swulinska: 54:54

For me, trying to find creative confidence is like the biggest challenge And it's something that goes up in peaks and troughs. And if you can find that and instill it in others, then I think you're doing something right, Because there's, like you know, new generations of incredible designers and they need to be given the space to thrive in. So, yeah, I think that's probably what I would take and my biggest learning It's a fickle thing sometimes confidence, but it helps you to be a better designer, I think, if you can find it.

Q: 55:29

Yeah, i think that this is a very cliche question that I ask, but I still ask, you know so, because I think every time I get different answers because initially, you know, i wasn't very sure about you know, asking everyone the same question, but I realized that I was getting very interesting answers And on a personal level I was, you know, i find them pretty interesting. So, yeah, thanks again, tashia. Thanks again for hopping onto the podcast. I had so much to pick from our conversation.

Tassia Swulinska: 56:02

Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for inviting me on And, yeah, look forward to hearing it and keep track of what you're up to all the way over there from London. Thank you, all right, take care then.