37 - Branding Beyond Borders and Unlocking Personal Growth, Creativity, and Vulnerability - with Lulu Raghavan

Ever wondered how to unleash your untapped potential and create a powerful personal brand? We sat down with Lulu Raghavan, the incredible Managing Director at Landor & Fitch India, to get her invaluable insights on personal growth, creativity, and vulnerability. Lulu's journey is a testament to the transformative power of embracing vulnerability and forming authentic connections, and in this episode, she shares her story and gives practical tips and strategies to stay creative.

Discover the branding services market in India, the differences between design agencies and advertising agencies, and the various factors that have contributed to the growth of design. Lulu shares her journey from setting up Landor in India to becoming a powerhouse in the industry. Her disciplined daily routine, including her hybrid working arrangements, and how she fits deep thinking into her day, offers valuable insights into the mindset required to succeed in the space.

Lastly, we dive into the art of personal branding and building a strong reputation that sets you apart. Lulu shares her thoughts on the 'acts of personal branding' and how to define your unique sauce. We also discuss how to be authentic and transparent on social media and how to use vulnerability as a superpower. So, join us for this insightful conversation with industry leader Lulu Raghavan and learn how to build a powerful personal brand and legacy.

Tune In as we discuss her creative leadership journey on The Groundbreakin Podcast

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/luluraghavan/
https://www.thebrandberries.com/2022/12/02/whats-ahead-for-branding-by-landor-fitchs-lulu-raghavan/
https://landorandfitch.com/en
https://www.instagram.com/lulu.raghavan/

Thank you for tuning in and I hope our listeners find it both insightful and exciting.
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Transcript

Q: 0:15

Hi, this is your host, Q live and direct from Syqi Studio Kochi. Hope you all are having a good time. Welcome to the ground baking, where we sit down with creatives, design and business pioneers to discuss their journeys, process and approach. If you are listening to this podcast for the first time, consider subscribing. Also, check out our website. we are working on a newsletter and a slowly growing design community on Discord, where we have weekly design live session every Saturday where we learn something new.

Q: 0:44

For this episode, we have Lulu Raghavan, the boss lady and the talented managing director at Landor in Fitch, india. Lulu is a true powerhouse in the industry, known for her discipline, approach to creativity and her knack for building thriving brands. During our chat, we dive into Lulu's incredible journey and uncover the secrets that have led to her remarkable success. From a cleverly planned week schedule to her insights on personal branding, lulu shares practical tips and strategies to stay creative. We also explore the transformative power of embracing vulnerability, unleashing untapped potential and forming authentic connections. So join us as we dig into this conversation, discovering the art of branding and personal growth. This is GroundBreaki n. Hi, lulu, how's it going with you?

Lulu Raghavan: 1:51

I'm very excited I'm about to go on holiday, but it's been very busy until now. but I'm starting to get into that mindset.

Q: 2:02

All right. All right, i mean, first of all, it's an honor to have you on the podcast And I know that it's been months that we are trying to have this conversation, so I'm really excited to what are we going to talk about?

Lulu Raghavan: 2:16

That's great. Thank you for having me, deepak. I've listened to a couple of your podcasts and what I really like is you go deep And whenever I have time I want to listen to all the other 30 or so that you've done. I hope that's the right number. I really, really appreciate what you're doing and how you are inspiring your audiences, just in terms of exposure to different people, different lines of work, their ways of thinking. It's really nice to have more of these authentic conversations.

Q: 2:52

Yeah, it means a lot coming from you. Lulu, how's it going with you? What part of the world you're in, what's happening?

Lulu Raghavan: 2:57

today I'm in Mumbai. earlier in the week I was in Bangalore. last week I was in Delhi. this weekend I'm heading to Italy for a week, just on holiday, but my role is mostly in India. Sometimes I travel around the world as well, but a lot to do in India.

Q: 3:20

Yeah, every day you are inspiring, i mean. So I've been learning so much from you from the other side. So, all right, let's just straight up. You know, talk about, talk about you and your journey in design. You always wanted to go into the space that you are in right now. Or is this something that you manifested throughout the years? Because, again, we all know that you've spent a huge time at where you are and the kind of impact you're doing. So it's not something that has happened, maybe in like five years or something. Maybe there are decades behind it.

Lulu Raghavan: 4:00

Yes, but you know I have to be honest. When I was in seventh standard, eighth standard, i wanted to be an architect. I actually did my elementary and intermediate exams that are offered in Maharashtra. I didn't do too well and I got a little bit depressed about my potential architectural skills. And then I became very left brain. I did computer science for 10th grade. I did math, physics, chemistry for 11th and 12th grade.

Lulu Raghavan: 4:29

When I was in college undergrad I did economics and applied math. And then you're thinking how did I even get into this world? So, deepak, when I moved back to India after my undergrad, because of my education I would have done either investment banking or management consulting. But a chance meeting with a family friend whose ex advertising actually opened my eyes to the wonder that is our industry advertising and marketing and media And I actually didn't know anything about this industry. Shwetha Roy, who was my mentor then family friend, asked me a very pertinent question. He said Lulu, do you want to be a small fish swimming in a very, very big pond, or are you really looking to be the big fish in a small pond, deepak? it took me a while to just wrap my head around that concept, but I knew what he was getting at And he introduced me to somebody at Ogilvia, a gentleman called R Shreeter who was actually trying the concept of an ad agency doing brand consulting. So I was super lucky.

Lulu Raghavan: 5:49

I worked with Shreeter. I was in APJ house, which was the iconic Ogilvia headquarters in Churchgate. I was literally 10 meters away from Piyush Pandey and Sonal Dabral and all the iconic advertising gurus, yet I was doing brand consulting. So it was this perfect combination of left brain and right brain. I was pretty much Shreeter's assistant the whole year.

Lulu Raghavan: 6:14

I must have read more than a hundred books on branding and marketing most well-stocked library. He used to pick up all of these books on his travels And that's where I think my passion for branding was born. I then went to MBA. I specialized in international business and marketing And then, when I moved to the US and was looking for a job, i got the job at Landor to be a brand naming and brand strategist. But it was a design agency And that's when my appreciation and love for design began And, frankly, over the years it's been self-taught. I'm not a designer, but appreciation of design, the business of design, the importance of design for the growth of businesses, all of that is something that I picked up over the years being at the best brand and design agency.

Q: 7:12

I mean, it's definitely an amazing journey, And so you talked about getting the finance mentors out there, so is it something that just happened? I think I'm sure that you are also seeking for the right people on the way.

Lulu Raghavan: 7:30

Honestly no. Now, if I look back on my career and think about what could I have done differently? or what do I recommend younger people do is to actively seek out members. Shumit was a family friend. Then he introduced me to Shridhar, who also was known to the family. When I was at Ogilvy I had all of these greats next to me, but did I ever ask them for advice? No, i don't think so. I think I was an idiot. I was young and didn't think to ask any of them career advice. or did I take time to understand their stories? No, i think I was just a little bit starstruck but didn't use that opportunity. I had to land on a little bit more.

Lulu Raghavan: 8:19

I used to work for the CEO. I was actually his executive assistant and he was a mentor for me in many ways. Actually, he was responsible for helping me understand that to grow in general management and to be a successful leader I needed to be a rainmaker. That's when, deepak, i switched from strategy to client development and new business development and really doubled down on being very client centric and bringing in the clients and servicing the clients. Design was, of course, taken care of by our design team. I've been lucky to have had very good mentors. In fact this is a fun fact In my 22 years at Landau and Refitch I've had 11 white male bosses. I don't think my mentors have been particularly diverse, but they've all been very accomplished and they've all believed in me. I've been the beneficiary of a lot of mentoring, guidance, coaching at every step of the day.

Q: 9:32

It sounds awesome, right? You so easily mentioned that you were surrounded with a lot of people who had amazing experience and an international team. Do you also think that that's what made you a person who's globally recognized, and maybe I've given you a lot of space to understand more about brand building?

Lulu Raghavan: 9:58

I think so, deepak. I'm lucky that I did my undergraduate studies in the US. I truly believe in the power of a liberal arts education which gives you exposure to many, many diverse fields. It really improves your critical thinking, your writing, your communication skills Very well-rounded. So my US undergrad education and plus having worked in San Francisco, in New York, in London Those are all amazing cities, very competitive in their own ways.

Lulu Raghavan: 10:34

In the environments of these cities, in those offices, the professionalism that you have there, the mindset about work, the respect that colleagues have for each other, the boundaries that are there between work and home These are all things that I picked up. And I've also spent six months in France. When I was a student at Davidson, i did a junior semester abroad in Tour of France. That also gave me the exposure to the European French way of life, if you will. So yes, i'm very lucky that all of these experiences that I've picked up over the years has made me who I am, and I suppose if you look back and connect the dots, you could tell a global story.

Q: 11:23

So, talking about your global experience and you've constantly been working from India I'm sure you must have seen a big gap that our market had throughout these years And again it's getting better and better, but I think we still have a lot to do out there. So how did you maybe see that gap and what made you to stick in the system that maybe there's space to create effective brands and where because I think a lot of has to do with the culture as well to make a legacy? So did you see that gap? or was it something that was maybe disrupted? the process you were following with maybe global clients, for example?

Lulu Raghavan: 12:15

Remember that I came back to India and I've been here for 15 years. The reason I came back is because I think I truly believe that the market for branding services was makes it There was a huge potential to grow, because Indian companies, indian brands, are very, very ambitious. The businesses are ambitious And therefore eventually they will understand that what differentiates the businesses in a global level is brand. Look at the Chinese companies. You look at the Korean companies. They've learned that it takes a lot of investment to build global brands And I do think the best brands from India will get there. And India itself is a very, very competitive market And companies recognize the need for differentiation, which is where investment in brand building comes in.

Lulu Raghavan: 13:19

I was excited by the potential of growing the market. You had a couple of agencies here, notably Elephant Design. There was also Shambit Sen Gupta, who had worked on Britannia and Wipro. So the conversation about brand transformation and the power of design had just started. So I was excited to be part of it And I'm still excited to be part of it. It's growing. It's changed dramatically. One metric of that change is that when I first set up Landon on India, when we would get a brief from a client, they would have ad agencies in there, brand consultancies in there. They didn't know what kind of agency was required. Today it's very clear Marketing people, business people have an understanding of branding and design And so I still believe would just crash the surface of the opportunities In India. It's just a matter of time. The sensibilities have evolved. Consumer sensibilities have evolved. Consumers are traveling the world. They are going to demand well designed, taught through products and service experiences, which means more business for everybody in the world.

Q: 14:36

I'm excited as well where the market is heading. So, as you mentioned, that the brands did not have any idea about what they were looking for. I think it's still the same a lot of times And I think through my research and I had multiple conversations with creative founders and I've also learned that initially there was no concept of design agencies. I think advertising agencies were design agencies. What do you think has been a difference, especially in an Indian market, because I think a client is still a person who wants to build a brand. I mean, that's something which is on the business side. So what do you think as a design agency compared to an advertising agency?

Lulu Raghavan: 15:28

I mean. First, we got to recognize the hard work done in terms of category building of the oldest firm in the industry, like Elephant Design. They completed 30 years. So Ashwini Deshpande and her team have been evangelizing design for the longest time in corporate boardrooms. The success globally of well-branded and brand-driven companies like the Apples of the world, the Dyson's of the world, airbnb's of the world, who all talk about how design has been the underpinning, have also reached our shores. Our CEOs are well-traveled. They go to conferences. They understand the power of brand and design And when they come back they say, okay, we need this as well.

Lulu Raghavan: 16:19

In terms of the distinction, it's word of mouth. Clients who've experienced design companies who've experienced the specialists who've seen the value for it understand. Media also has done a better job of covering the work of design agencies, the design work. You have lots of columns, whether it's in the Mint or other newspapers. You do see a lot more dialogue about the value of design. Conferences as well will feature it, if not in a major way, in some smaller way. And then, of course, you have forums like Curious, who truly have evangelized it. So I think there's a number of factors that have contributed to the growth of design.

Q: 17:14

Yeah, makes sense. So all right, let's just talk about how your day goes. So what's a normal day looks like in your life?

Lulu Raghavan: 17:26

Oh, my God, you don't even want to know. I mean, i know your readers can't see, but I can show this to you, literally like. My calendar is like blocked from morning to night. There's not like five minutes of space. I'm not proud of that. I'm not proud of that at all. Our CEO, jane Gerriti, always tells us don't confuse busyness with achievement, or don't confuse activity with achievement. Just because you're running crazy busy, Are you going for help to scatter? Doesn't mean that you're actually achieving something. So my days are hectic, deepak. The challenge is finding out, carving out time for deep thinking.

Lulu Raghavan: 18:12

I typically get up between 5.30 and 6 in the morning. It used to be five, but I really value my sleep these days I make sure I get at least eight to nine hours of sleep. So waking up a little earlier, sorry, a little later. I exercise every morning from six to seven, seven, fifteen, three days a week I do weight training. Twice a week I do yoga and once a week I play tennis. I try to do one day rest. I get ready, i leave for work between 7.45 and 8.

Lulu Raghavan: 18:49

We have hybrid working and we encourage people to come into the office two to three days a week. Otherwise it's flexible. I like being in the office, so I'm here almost every day. I match my desk by about 8.30 in the morning. I have a standing desk, which I like a lot, because even though I exercise in the mornings during COVID Deepak, i was finding that I was sitting on my ass the rest of the day, which means that all the benefit of that exercise was going away. So I like the privilege of having a standing desk.

Lulu Raghavan: 19:24

It's usually meetings, team meetings. I have at least about two to three client interactions a day which I enjoy. Sometimes clients come to us, sometimes I pop out for a client meeting, sometimes it's a team call. There are a lot of regional calls. We work very closely as an Asia-Pacific region. We also have global calls. I also have one-on-ones with my leadership team. I have a leadership team of 12 in India. We have a team in Delhi as well, and so the whole day is quite hectic.

Lulu Raghavan: 20:00

I try to eat lunch with the team between 1.00 and 1.30, but increasingly it's becoming difficult because that slot is taken as well. So sometimes I just eat while doing work. I try to leave between 5.00 and 6.00. Sometimes earlier if I can continue the calls in my car, sometimes later. Yesterday I was here until about 8.30, if there are some later calls or I need to be with the team, i like physically being there. If I'm home earlier, i try to do a walk in the evening as well, just to unwind and get a little bit more exercise.

Lulu Raghavan: 20:34

I try to eat dinner before 7.00. I'm a huge believer in the circadian rhythm And anyway, because I've woken up so early, i'm quite famished by 7.00. And then I usually spend a couple of hours with my kids just fudging around, chit-chatting. They both are teenagers. They typically are busy with their school work after that. So around 9.00 is when I try to switch off my digital devices and pick up a book. I'm a huge fan of books And I try to read for half an hour 45 minutes And, believe it or not, very unfashionable to say, but I am fast asleep by 9.45 or 10. So that's my schedule, if it gives you a little bit of a sneak peek into what my day looks like, and it says, at least once a week, a Delhi, bangalore, krakata, hyderabad trip. Those days are pretty brutal because those day trips can be exhausting.

Q: 21:33

Yeah, I mean it sounds definitely insane and makes you even more badass, man. I mean you made it sound so easy, like it was a piece of cake, So yeah.

Lulu Raghavan: 21:46

But you know, deepak, i was just telling my father-in-law this morning. he's like wow, you really exercise every day. And I said to him you know, if I don't exercise I feel like crap at the end of the day, i don't have energy. So I truly feel that my exercise gives me energy to go the whole day. I don't feel exhausted.

Q: 22:04

That's insane. I definitely agree with that. I think it's also directly proportional to your mental state as well. I think you know, if you, if you, if you sweat yourself out, you definitely you know, i think your brain also functions pretty well. I mean, yeah, that's definitely pretty badass. I mean kudos to you, you know, a big pat on your back And yeah it's awesome You're, you're, you know you definitely inspired me, so, all right.

Q: 22:34

So I mean so, when you, when you talk about you know meeting clients, you know going to, you know going out to meet potential clients and you know putting yourself out there, how do you prioritize? you have like a team who does that for you, or I mean, i'm sure there must be a priority list. Okay, that you got to do And you know the sensitivity of this specific thing is like more than the than than the other.

Lulu Raghavan: 22:58

Yes, So you're right, we have a pretty large team in India, so the scale of our operations now is very, very big. We have 150 people. 50 of them are part of something that we call the global design studio. We have at least 100 people on our core team. We are servicing a lot of clients. We have very capable client leaders who run the projects. We decide with the client leaders which are the projects where I would add the most value, where I have an existing relationship or where the client is very keen for my involvement.

Lulu Raghavan: 23:43

I also keep my diary completely open and transparent. I don't have an assistant, but the different client and project managers discuss with each other and put the slots in accordingly, and they're really, i feel, so privileged because they sort out the conflicts, they fight when there is a clash, they figure it out. I also know which are priority clients, which are the ones where I'm critical, ones where others can also take over. I'm really lucky that we all have a common and shared understanding of the role that each of us plays, and so, while I don't have an assistant, it's just not our culture to have secretaries. We figure it out between ourselves.

Lulu Raghavan: 24:28

I think I find that I should be in meetings where I can add the most value. If I just have to sit in and listen and I don't have an active role to play I try not to be that I regularly deep up, will decline meetings. People will invite me for all kinds of things. If I don't think that I have anything particular to add, i might even ask the client I'm not really sure that I need to be there so and so is very well equipped to handle it. It's been a teaching process because clients have also seen me literally from being the person to now being more of a senior person. Some of our clients are super, super, super understanding and I'm there just for the CEO meeting or the chairman meeting. They know the roles that everybody else on the team plays, because if I'm there in the meeting, then everything revolves around more senior person. A lot of times I like to excuse myself so that the team can truly shine.

Q: 25:33

Wow, definitely there's a lot of organizational things that your team is doing. Let's move on to something that you talk a lot about, which is person branding. Why do we suddenly have a huge wave of the need of creating a person brand? What's your take on that? Why do you think that moving forward everyone It's not, of course, just for creators, but all kinds of the industry, even from creative industry to even something which is very technical Why do you think that it's very important moving forward?

Lulu Raghavan: 26:17

I don't know if you know the origin of it is actually Tom Peters. In a 1984 article in Fast Company, he talked about how it was really important to think about brand me, which is brand you, and that you have to be the CEO of your own company. Tom Peters, who's a pioneering leading management guru, actually said this a long time ago, but, deepak, i think it has been the explosion of social media, also the fact that every single job or opportunity can be fielded by thousands of people who may appear to be the same. The need for distinctiveness, the need to stand out, has been stronger than ever before, and therefore the concepts started to become popular. People started writing about it and then, when social media exploded, there was an easy channel or channels in which you could build your brand, notably LinkedIn, and so the whole idea of standing for something, being clear on the value that you bring to the table and then starting to market yourself, started growing in popularity.

Lulu Raghavan: 27:42

And today you can't just sit behind a desk, do great work and expect that anybody will notice, not even your boss. Everyone so self-centered, everyone so obsessed with their own ambitions that nobody is really paying attention. The onus is on you to talk about the value that you bring, to make sure that your achievements are known, to put yourself ahead, to have a voice. But there's a fine line. Some people think personal branding is quite crass, that you don't need to promote yourself, and that seems very inauthentic. So there are two schools of thought. But nobody can deny that What gets you opportunities, what gets you hired, is a strong reputation. Reputation is nothing but brand. You can use whatever word you want being associated with something that you stand for and bring to the table. That's what your personal brand is about.

Q: 28:47

Yeah, that's right. I agree with that, and in fact, i think it's much more important to put your point of view out there. I think that tells a lot about you as a professional as well. So, other than an arithmetic approach like how to grow on LinkedIn and how to grow on Instagram, things like that, what do you think are the core things that one has to keep in mind to build a personal brand And which also thrives, which kind of keeps the whole system very authentic and not something which is fake and pretends a false information about you as a person? Because I think that's my personal observation that a lot of times they just try to fake it. What do you think about that?

Lulu Raghavan: 29:39

That happens when people think that being on social media means you have a personal brand. That couldn't be further from the truth. I like to talk about the acts of personal branding, ACTS, the acts of personal branding. So act one is define your personal brand.

Q: 29:59

You have to go in.

Lulu Raghavan: 30:00

Before you go out, you have to look inside. Most people can't articulate What is your special sauce, what's your X factor? How are you different from the 100 other podcasters? What makes Deepak Deepak?

Lulu Raghavan: 30:17

So having a really good understanding of that takes a lot of self-awareness, self-work, feedback from colleagues and friends about your specialness that you bring to the table, your onliness, as Martin Humayun likes to say, the thing that only you can do so well. So definition is important. The second element is we do live in a visual world, and one where even sound is becoming even more important. So what does your brand look like? The visual elements of your brand? You've seen my website. It's black, white and yellow. You have my distinctive LR identity. Now people actually associate me with yellow, black and white. Sometimes people say, oh, you're not wearing yellow today. Right, and I do happen to be wearing a bit of yellow today, but that's my brand And it's a nice way to establish a shortcut.

Lulu Raghavan: 31:17

It doesn't mean that you need to have a logo or a visual identity, but I do feel that if you want to build a very strong personal brand of a signature style, a signature style even in clothes, the way you come across, the way you speak, the way you represent your thoughts through your words. You follow me on Instagram. I'd be interested to know what you picked up about me or what your impressions were from just what I post on Instagram. That's actually what's brand Ludo. It's not what I see it is. It's what Deepak thinks brand Ludo is. So your turn. What do you think brand Ludo is?

Q: 32:01

I see a lot of things. I think you are someone who believes in giving and making an impact. For example, one of the talk which is still in my watch list is where you've talked about I think it's a TED talk where you've talked about vulnerability as a superpower. So things like that is something which I think you live for, i feel Again, that's just one thing which just came to my mind. When you say, okay, let's just talk about that, i think it's a little unfair that I haven't seen that talk of yours. But what do you mean by using your vulnerability as your superpower?

Lulu Raghavan: 32:48

I was just talking about the fact that authenticity is increasingly important in the world today And when you're vulnerable. What is vulnerability means? It means that you're putting yourself out there in the most authentic way possible. You're not being afraid to be seen for who you really are. There's nothing fake about you. You are expressing your opinions, you are putting yourself out there. You are courageous. You're doing bold things. You might be saying bold things or doing brave things. You are not fearing failure.

Lulu Raghavan: 33:26

All of these are very authentic ways of living. but it's also vulnerable because it's not a manufactured front for how you want to see people. You're not just curating the perfect version of yourself. You're okay showcasing all of the what's as well. It's an authentic, transparent way of sharing yourself with the world, and I think that's attractive.

Lulu Raghavan: 33:50

In fact, i'll share with you that in some of my earlier talks of talking about my career and my story, some people have given me feedback that is very boring because it's all about your success. It's not relatable. Why don't you start talking about some of the challenges that you had, the fear that you had to overcome? You're a human being, you're not some supernatural machine. Talk more about that, and so actually, that was really good feedback for me, and every time I try to think about what did I learn that I can share, about things that happened to me Where people saw that, hey, you know what you're vulnerable. You're not some ivory tower person who's super perfect. And I'm far from a perfect. I have lots and lots of flaws, some of which are more visible than others, but I'm the first to accept that.

Q: 34:45

Yeah, i mean, that's not something a lot of people talk about because, again, this whole world, especially the digital world, is filled with fake imperfections of some sort. Everyone's striving to be becoming a perfectionist, of some sort at least, and that, i think, also creates a lot of confusion out there. So I think more of more of this that that we need to talk about. All right, so we are running out of time, and so the next one is basically coming from. It's actually a personal, personal question, and maybe it can help whoever's listening. So right now there's since, you know, ai has come to the world and it has, you know, it's making everyone's more productive productive than they were, if they're, of course, using the most out of it And, at the same time, talking about design agencies and advertising agencies.

Q: 35:41

There's a plethora of agencies out there, and again, it's coming from me running my agency, and you know what. What do you think about building, building a legacy, building, building an ecosystem in a design agency to you know, which can build trust out there and and again, where creativity and innovation can thrive? what? what do you think that you know I should focus on as a, as a, as a creative founder?

Lulu Raghavan: 36:14

Yeah, that's a really good question. A good analogy is photography. We all have an iPhone, we all can take photos, but professional photographers are still very much in demand. So even if AI can do a lot, it's still a machine. It's lacking that emotional human connect. So, as a founder, i would double down on the human inspiration, the human power, insights that you and your agency bring to the table. Ai can augment, it can be your partner, but can you produce work that's truly original, that's sparked by personal experiences of your right to, or your strategist or your designer, from their hometown, their native places, from their experiences at a museum, you know, going out there, living life, bringing that into the work? that can never be replicated by AI. So we need to have confidence, supreme confidence, in human creativity and find ways in which that human creativity is at the intersection of an insight, a big idea and therefore solutions to the problems that brands come to you for, Yeah, I've noted that down, Would love to talk about more.

Q: 37:53

We definitely gotta do around to, I think. All right, so moving forward, I think let's just go on to our last question on the podcast. So from the outside, from this side of the world, it looks like that you're already on the top. You are able to make an impact. You are able to inspire thousands and thousands of people. What do you aspire to become now? I mean, what's the next stage for you? What you know on a personal level, on a professional level?

Lulu Raghavan: 38:32

If I were to be very vulnerable and frankly share my ambition, i'd like to be a global CEO, a global female CEO. I'm far from that. Yes, i'm leading Lando on Fitch and India, but the global stage is there Now. I don't know whether it'll be at Lando on Fitch or some other agency or something else, but I'm super inspired by women who have done so well women from India, my earliest role model within, ranui, who has just been such a huge inspiration. Not only did she rise up the rank and became CEO and chairman of PepsiCo, but her legacy, the kinds of things that she did there You know, even simple things like I don't know if you know Deepak. When she was at PepsiCo, she started a tradition of the company writing to the parents of employees saying thank you, thank you for all of the time that your children have spent at the company, or something like that. Right, she has the whole legacy of sustainability, legacy of design at PepsiCo. That's impact, that's impacted scale. So she's one that I'm hugely inspired by. More recently, you have Lena Nyer, from the marketing and HR world at Unilever, who now is the Chanel CEO. Wow, that's quite a huge shift, and she spent a lot more years in India before going abroad In Ranui, at least, was in the US for the longest time, and when I look at leaders like that, i really believe, deepak, that the next decade, the coming decade, we're going to see a lot of female Indian CEOs.

Lulu Raghavan: 40:24

You know we have a long list, from Satya Nadella to Shantanu Narayan to Sundar Pichai, to long list of men. Oh, and then, most recently, the one that I actually should as closest to me is Devika Balchandani, who is the global CEO of Ogilvy. What an inspiring career she has. She's the latest. So in Ranui then, lena Devika, i'm looking for these role models and thinking you know what I'd love to be that. Why would I love to be that? The question that you should ask is why, right, i'd love to be that? because the scale then, of the impact, the things that you can do.

Lulu Raghavan: 41:05

I'm very excited about women in leadership because I think there's just so much more to be done. It's still a man's world, whether we like it or not. We have 50% of humanity with products and services are still designed for men. The world is default, male. It's changing, changing to some extent, but change is not happening fast enough, and I'd love to be there to be able to make change happen. More. So, global scale, exciting career opportunity to make an impact. I think the things that so far I've built my career on are brand and design, creativity and leadership, leading creative teams. I don't wanna go too far away from this. It has to be something to do with brand or design or creativity or leadership, but the ideal would be the intersection of all of these things. Oops, there you go. I said it. I don't think I've been quite as naked with my ambition As I have been with you Definitely very inspiring.

Q: 42:15

And again, more and more power to you, lulu, and your aspirations, and I wish whatever you aspire to do happens And cause at the same time one I think it's be on the other side. We'll really enjoy that as well. So, yeah, all right, all right, We definitely gotta do round 2. After this, i think I gotta catch you again, maybe in the next few months, lulu. And again, thanks again for hopping on to the podcast and finding time for the podcast. I hope you have an amazing time.

Lulu Raghavan: 42:57

Thank you so much, Dipaq. It was a real pleasure And I appreciate you being on time as well. Really appreciate it And look forward to catching up, and hopefully your audiences will enjoy the show as well. Our conversation was fun.

Q: 43:10

Definitely gonna learn a lot.

Lulu Raghavan: 43:13

Like on a personal level.

Q: 43:15

I learned so much in just this 40 odd minutes of conversation.

Lulu Raghavan: 43:23

Okay, thank you, okay, bye.